Sunday Interview: Evelyn Turner-Pugh: 'I'm a firm believer that I have Parkinson's but it doesn't have me'

For 26 years, Evelyn Turner-Pugh has been a steady and consistent voice on Columbus Council.

She has fought for the community's economically challenged, trying to improve their living conditions and quality of life. Raised in what was called "The Bottom," Turner-Pugh has been at the top of the city's political and business structure -- holding executive positions at Blue Cross-Blue Shield and SunTrust.

Steady and consistent.

Unfortunately, her health has not been as steady or consistent. Diagnosed a dozen years ago, Turner-Pugh has persevered in the face of an illness that causes her hands to shake uncontrollably and eats away at her stamina.

Recently, she sat down with reporter Chuck Williams and talked about her life, business and political careers and her illness.

Here are excerpts of the interview, with some of the questions edited for length and the order of some of the questions rearranged for clarity.

Where is the Bottom?

The Bottom was located between MLK Boulevard and Wynnton Road. Used to be dirt streets. And every time it would be a real hard rain the streets would flood, and sometimes the people's houses that were low to the ground, boats would have to come in and get them out from the houses.

That was a primarily black part of town?

Yes. ... We lived on East Ninth Street.

What did your parents do?

My father was a cook and my mother was a cook also out at Fort Benning. My father used to be a cook at Sandy's across from CB&T on Veterans. It's now Ruth Ann's. He had been in the military and he was a cook there.

How has Columbus changed in your lifetime?

I think it has changed a lot. There are still some problems that we have that we don't talk about, but then there are problems that we have that we do talk about. We used to not dare talk about race relations, and now I don't think people hesitate to talk about it. They feel like it's an issue.

What are some of the problems that we don't talk about?

I don't think we talk enough about the have-nots. There are still areas of Columbus that need redeveloping. In a lot of your housing areas you have people living in homes that they shouldn't be living in. They are rental properties and you have slum lords -- and nothing is done about them.

Obviously, that bothers you.

Yeah. If you can recall over the years, one of the biggest things I've always talked about is housing. I can remember NeighborWorks when it was Columbus Housing Initiative, and before that we had what we called "Christmas in April." One of the main functions that we talked about, even when we first did the first marches, housing was an issue.

We went through the neighborhood to identify housing that looked like it had code violations and to get those corrected, because my philosophy is I don't care if you live in a box, that box can be neat, and if you're renting that box from somebody, it should be even better than the one you have yourself.

I think there are some apartment units, one you can talk about, the one behind Carver High School -- you ride by and look at it and say, why can't something be done about it?

What issues arise from substandard housing?

I know people can only afford certain amounts as it relates to living based on their income that they make, but I still think substandard housing shouldn't exist. We have a lot of government programs that are supposed to help people in housing. You've got people who work for the city of Columbus and they are on the low end of the totem pole as far as wages, but that doesn't mean they have to live in a slumlord's house.

But some do, right?

I know, and that's the problem. I don't have the magic answer to get rid of it.

You've been on Columbus Council now for 26 years. Housing, demolition and all of that have been issues the entire time, right?

Right.

What have you tried to do to address it?

I've tried to make sure we've kept it as a focal point. Sometimes I think if you don't keep demolitions in the forefront, then it will be forgotten. But as long as I'm living and as long as I'm on city council and I can speak -- whether I'm on council or not -- I won't let it die. I think we owe it to not only ourselves and our God, but to the people, to make sure things in Columbus are the best they can be.

Just like we put emphasis on the (Chattahoochee) RiverWalk. And a lot of people say you ought to take that money and do something else with it. Monies for things like the RiverWalk -- those are special funds -- you can't do other things with it. But I think by being on city council, knowing that we have issues in housing and affordable housing, we have to serve as a voice to our state legislatures and to our congressional individuals also.

Is there a reason you're so passionate about this?

It's just been something that's been with me all of my life that I can think of. My primary emphasis when I first got on council was trying to be a voice of the people who didn't have a voice, and I think that has been part of it.

I've gone in the trenches and I've worked on projects, helping build a Habitat house. When we went to Beallwood and we wanted to make sure Beallwood was redeveloped because it had turned into a not-so-nice place to have to live, but you have people who live there. I actually helped work on a house in Beallwood, trying to get it back up to standards.

You can walk by some place and see somebody in a poor condition and say they need help, but if you don't go help them, who will? If not me, who?

You have some of the worst housing in Columbus in your district, right?

Not anymore. But you have to remember when I first got on council it was only four districts in the city. I had the southern half and I did have some low-income housing. Not a lot, but I know what Carver Heights used to look like, I know what East Carver Heights used to look like -- I grew up in East Carver Heights. I used to walk the streets in Carver Heights, so I know what it used to look like, and to ride by there before we did Eighth Street, you could just stand there and cry because you know that you had a lot of elderly people living in those kind of conditions. And that's not what you want for an elderly person, or at least you shouldn't want it for them.

Historically, it's a significant place. Why?

I think because a lot of your blacks who are in prominent positions now grew up in the Wynnton area, Carver Heights, East Carver Heights areas. And even though I know a lot of times when they talk about prominent blacks in Columbus, they mention people who lived in BTW and places like that. We also have some in Carver Heights, East Carver Heights and Wynnton.

Back in those days, as they would say, it was a time when there was a village raising kids. When you walked down the street and you saw an adult sitting on the porch, an elderly person, you always spoke. I don't care if you passed five times, you spoke five times. That was a matter of respect and that was ingrained in us, and there was a relationship between the teachers and the parents. When you did something at school, by the time you got home your parents already knew.

Is that not happening today?

I don't think so.

Does that bother you?

It does in a way. A lot of times it's not just the teacher's fault. Sometimes, it's the parent's fault because there's not a talking relationship. Sometimes we say we wait on the administration to make a pitch to us. Well, that's your child. You should be there from day one. You should be there when school opens buying a PTA membership, and not only buying a PTA membership, but also being involved.

I know people work two and three jobs, because I worked two or three jobs when I had my children and I was a single parent. But you can make time for things you want to make time for. And when it involves your children, I think that's when you make time.

Do we have a crime problem in Columbus?

I think we have a crime problem everywhere. And to say how can we solve it, I don't have a clue. Every time you pick up the paper you see somebody has killed somebody else. And it's the same race. It's not a racial issue all of the time. You have black-on-black crime, and we're talking about young people. I always say you know how bad the conditions are in the jail, why would you want to put yourself in a position to do something that's going to put you in that condition? But there's no thought when it comes to killing somebody.

How did we get there?

Chuck, if I had the answer to that question I'd be a millionaire.

If you look right now, there have been 19 homicides. Every homicide in Columbus this year has been an African-American. What do you say to that?

And if you asked everyone of those individuals who did the killing, they really couldn't give you a good answer as to why they did it. It's been drug-related, it's been money-related and it's been "just because he looked at me," which is absolutely crazy.

Do you think things that maybe when we were younger were solved with fist fights are now solved with gun fights?

I have said that over and over again.

Explain.

If we had a disagreement with somebody, we usually got into a fist fight and it was the end of it. Nobody pulled out a knife or gun. I don't know what the crime statistics were back then, but I just don't believe we had the kind of killing that we have now. We didn't have the accessibility to guns. And I think if there were more available jobs, you may not have so much killing.

So, you think it's an economic issue as much as a racial one?

I think so.

Do you think the leaders in the black community are talking enough about the black-on-black crime issues?

I think so.

Why do you say that?

Well, the ministers have been talking and they have been meeting, and some of the elected officials have been talking. But you still got to have that economic factor in place, and it's got to be more than minimum wage. If you're feeding four people in a household on minimum wage, that's poverty. ... A lot of people say if you give them subsidies they're on welfare. We have corporate welfare. People talk about welfare like it's just for poor people and it's not just black poor; you've got poor white people. I don't have a problem helping somebody when they are trying to help themselves. But when you expect somebody to live off of $7.35 an hour, and they won't bring home all of that because they have to pay taxes.

That's not a livable wage, right?

No, but then when we have corporations that come into Columbus and they get tax credits for 20 years, what's the difference?

You tell me?

I don't see it as being a difference. Giving and giving.

But the argument would be the need to give those tax incentives to the corporations to bring the jobs here, right?

True, but don't stand up and condemn people because they are taking subsidies to help them make a better place in life for their families.

To you this is not a black and white issue at all. This is ...

This is a people issue. If it were just black folks who didn't have jobs -- there are white folks who can't get decent jobs, too. A lot of it is self-initiated, but sometimes you have to be that catalyst to help push that person to want to do better in life. When I first got on Columbus Tech's board, and back in the day when I was in school, we had a program (where) I worked half a day my senior year at Royal Crown Cola.

Where were you going to school?

Carver High School. My classes were finished at 12 and I went to work and worked four hours a day.

What did you do at Royal Crown?

I was a secretary. I thought I wanted to be a professional secretary all my life and I soon learned that wasn't what I wanted to do. But that was a start and that helped me realize that's not what I wanted to do all of my life. But they had the Distributed Education Program back then too. There was one program where people worked on woodwork, made cabinets and stuff like that.

Where did you go to college, or did you?

I stayed here and went to Columbus College -- Columbus State now.

How long did it take you to get through Columbus College?

I finished my BS in 1975.

What was your major?

My major was in business management. My minor was in marketing and accounting. I was working at Blue Cross. And after my first year, I ended up getting a job and went to school at night.

Why was getting that degree important to you?

Because it was something I promised my mom. I always told my mother I would finish college.

And she held you to that?

No, I held myself to it.

Would your life have been different if you hadn't gotten that college degree?

Oh, I think so.

In what way?

I don't think the doors would have been open as much career-wise.

You were working at Blue Cross-Blue Shield?

I was working at Blue Cross-Blue Shield. I started at Blue Cross December 1969.

Did the degree get you into a management position?

When I first started working at Blue Cross I was in claims for the first seven years. After I got my degree I ended up working in finance. That was not my plan at first, but once I started working in finance I fell in love with accounting. I hated accounting in college and I ended up with 35 hours in it because I needed some hours, so I just took accounting classes.

I loved math in high school but I just didn't want to go into it in college -- and ended up with 20 something years at Blue Cross in finance and then working in the bank.

So, you're a numbers person.

Very much.

Being a numbers person, does that help you in your duties as a councilor?

Oh, yeah. I was the budget and review person for several years. It helps me understand when the finance director gets up and talks about what we have and what we don't have, or if department heads request certain things. It gives me the ability to ask certain questions.

So, you've opened the door now. Let's talk about the city budget. These are lean times right now. Right?

Right.

Why?

Well, it's a combination of several factors. You have the property tax freeze. You have the millage cap. And that's the bucket of money you have to spend. Unless you have new construction coming in or unless someone moves out of their house into another house, then the taxes stay the same.

Sales tax, those are up and down. We have good months and we have bad months. You never know how much people are going to spend. A budget is a projection and you never want to expend the full amount you are projecting you are going to receive, because if you do, you are going to be in a hurt when you don't receive as much.

One of the things people often say is you've got this pot of money over here for this and you've got this pot of money over there for that. Why don't you give to the employees for salary increases? If I could, I would. But by law, there are certain pockets of money that have to be set aside for, say, roads, your sewage fund. You can't use that money to pay general government salaries or public safety salaries.

Last year was a fairly contentious budget year. Do you see it getting any better down the road?

It's probably going to be about the same. It's not like we have an overflowing pot of money at the end like we used to. You have to look at each year as each year and each projection as each projection. We have to look at what we are doing and whether or not it's working, and if it's not working, why keep doing it? Do something else that will work.

What has been the best part of being on council and being the mayor pro-tem?

I think the best part of being on council is you know about things that are happening in the community. You are a part of it.

Sometimes a big part, right?

Yeah, and sometimes a little part. And sometimes you know things before other people know. Often it can be something you wish would happen in your community, and when it does happen and you wait until it becomes public, you feel like you've really met your mark. You feel like you've done what you were put here to do.

When you're sitting up there and you are weighing a decision, are you thinking what's best for District 4 or what's best for the city?

For the city.

So, the city comes ahead of the district in your decision making process. Why?

It all depends on what the decision making is on. If it's on something that is affecting my district, my district comes first. But if it is something that's affecting the whole community, I look at that too. Sometimes there are some things that happen in my district that will have an impact on the whole community.

How has the Columbus political climate changed in the 26 years you've been on council?

When I first came on council there were four district councilors. Now you have eight, and that was the best change. A lot of people said it would do more harm than it would good because you would have people so concerned about their council district that nothing would ever get done. That has been proven not to be the case.

There may be councilors in this group you disagree with on things, but do y'all work together pretty good? Do y'all seem to get along?

Oh yeah. When I first got on council, Edna Kendrick was on council and I was the second female and the rest of them were males. You had two black males, and six whites.

It was like you had to wade through the water, but you also had to let them know that I was elected to represent, not elected to be told what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. So, you had to stand up to some people sometimes.

That's never been a problem for you, right?

No. I remember a mayor telling me one time that I was asking too many questions. They were used to getting out of the night meetings in an hour. And I said if I can get my questions answered in an hour we can go.

Who was that mayor?

I'd rather not say.

Oh, come on.

It was (James) Jernigan.

If you could change one thing about this city right now, an immediate change, what would it be?

If I could change one thing? That's a hard question. If I could change one thing it would be the way we look at people in terms of color, status and relationships.

What do you mean?

If we could treat everybody the way we are supposed to from a Christian standpoint. When I look at you, I don't see you as a white male, I see you as a friend. ... Don't look at me because I'm black -- I've been black all of my life, I'm not going to change. Look at me as a human being, as a person that wants good for everybody.

What do you consider your biggest accomplishment?

When I first ran for office, I promised my constituents that I would not impose a tax increase on them without talking about it with them first. And I have been able to keep that promise ever since I've been here. I think my other big accomplishment is I have not voted on something and could not explain this matter why I voted after the fact.

Does the fact that you're a grandmother -- you've just recently retired -- do you look at issues differently now than you did when you were younger?

I don't think so. I guess I'm a little wiser, but I think I still do the same calculations when I'm looking at an issue, try to look at what is involved in that issue, and what impact is it really going to have on the people, whether it's a positive or a negative impact.

Take rezonings in Columbus. We've had some hotly contested rezonings in Columbus. But, you have to look at this group that's against it, why they're against it, and the group that's for it, why they're for it, and weigh both sides and come up with a conclusion.

Let me ask you this -- I don't know if you'll answer it, but I'll ask -- who is your favorite mayor that you've worked with?

That's hard, but probably Bobby Peters. It's a toss up between Bobby and (Bob) Poydasheff.

You're going to have to explain that.

I guess because I had been on council with Bobby for a while, and I don't really have a rhyme or reason, and Bob has always been close like a family friend. You know, "Uncle Bob." And coming from the banking industry, we had a lot to talk about and he worked at SunTrust before also.

So, you had known "Uncle Bob" for quite a while.

Yes, but I really knew him from working on community projects. Then Frank Martin. So, I guess I don't have a favorite. I've had a good relationship with all the mayors I've worked with to include the present one.

Why was Bobby Peters an effective mayor?

Because he came from council and he knew a lot about what was going on in city government. And he had the trust factor attached to him. People believed in him.

I've heard people say Judge Peters is Columbus' most popular politician of this generation.

Yes. I remember when Bobby ran for mayor, you went to bed one night and woke up the next day and signs were everywhere. I never had to second guess anything Bobby said.

What do you mean?

He was always up front with you.

Are y'all still friends?

Yes.

Let's switch gears just a little bit. You've been battling Parkinson's Disease now for more than 10 years, right?

Right.

When did you find out you had Parkinson's Disease?

It's been either 10 or 12 years. I went to the doctor because I saw the tremors in my left hand. I couldn't figure out what was going on. And I used to have real bad headaches at one time, and I didn't know it was from the headaches or what.

But I'm very conscious about my body because cancer runs in my family quite a bit, my immediate family. So, I went to the doctor and I told my primary care physician about my hand shaking. I'll say for five or seven years, it was just in my left hand.

How has Parkinson's changed your life, or has it?

It has and it has not. It was real strange because before I came down with Parkinson's, the only person I knew who had Parkinson's that I really thought about was Janet Reno.

And the year I was chairperson for the National League of Cities Public Safety Committee, Janet Reno was the attorney general and I got to work with her for two hours one day.

So, to me, Parkinson's was the tremors all over. I didn't associate it with just one place when it first started.

After I found out I had Parkinson's, a lot of my clients and customers at the bank would come by and tell me they had Parkinson's.

I would meet people on the street and they would tell me they had Parkinson's. It's almost like when you buy a white car. You don't see that many white cars, and as soon as you get a white car you see white cars all over the street. I used to sometimes just sit up and think about it and laugh and said, "Before I knew I had Parkinson's, I didn't really know anybody that I could reach out and touch that had Parkinson's. But now I know a lot of people with Parkinson's."

What do you know about Parkinson's now that you didn't know 12 years ago?

Probably nothing other than it's a part of the brain that's dying. We're all going to die one day anyway, and I've always felt like you have to enjoy life while you're breathing because you don't know what's going to happen the next second.

I talked with my neurologist and it's a trial and error thing. The medications that you're on, they give you different mixtures together, and you just had to see which one works. Since I've stopped working, I know stress was worse on it.

So, being retired has helped?

Yes. I can be talking to you and not tremble at all. But let me get up in front of an audience and have to speak, and the tremors start. So, I don't know if that's something in my subconscious that's causing me to concentrate on it more so than just talking to you.

Has it impacted your stamina?

Sometimes. I notice sometimes when I walk, I walk slower. But the physical therapist told me exercising helps that.

So do you exercise? Do you walk?

I do, but not as much as I should. I guess I'm a firm believer that I have Parkinson's but it doesn't have me.

You can dwell on whatever disability you may have and let that control your actions, or you can do something and you control it.

And you have chosen to take control of it?

Right. I figure I have Parkinson's for a reason. And whatever that reason the Lord allowed me to have Parkinson's, He has also allowed me to go out and do work in His name.

As you battle this disease, have you thought about stepping away from council or is this something you just enjoy doing so much that you're not going to quit?

No. I don't think stepping away from council will make my Parkinson's any better. Council doesn't bother me. The stress I had working in the bank was totally different from the kind of stress I have in politics, and I guess because it has been a part of me for so long.

So, how much longer do you think you'll do this, you'll be on city council?

Let's not put a number on it because you might hold me to it. We won't even say a number. 'Til the Lord gets me to stop. He'll stop me when it's necessary.

When people talk about you as a city councilor and as a public servant, what do you hope they say about you?

I hope they say that I've done good toward the community.

The whole community?

Yes. I have little old ladies call me and they'll say, "Baby, you're not my councilor, I don't live in your district, I'm white, but I like to hear what you have to say."

Do you think that's because you really don't try to sugarcoat things; you kind of say things the way you see them?

I just try to be honest.

You're a politician.

That's not a bad thing. I'm a politician but I'm also a human being. One of the things I try to tell people is you can't put all politicians in the same bucket.

You're going to have good ones and you're going to have bad ones. It's just like people. You're going to have good people and you're going to have bad people.

BIO

Age: 64

Job: Columbus councilor for 26 years; retired banker, SunTrust; treasurer, Committee to Re-elect U.S. Rep. Sanford Bishop.

Education: Carver High School, 1968; Columbus State University, B.S. Business Management, 1975; Columbus State University, MBA, 1985.

Family: Husband, Ret. Lt. Col. Reginald Pugh, married for 14 years; five children, Deon, Tajuana, Maurice, Reggie Jr., and Talender; 10 grandchildren.

This story was originally published October 18, 2014 at 12:00 AM with the headline "Sunday Interview: Evelyn Turner-Pugh: 'I'm a firm believer that I have Parkinson's but it doesn't have me'."